Chris Gibbons : "At the centre of this is Richard Young, the Managing Director of C²I², who is now also on the line to us from Johannesburg. Richard, good afternoon and welcome to you. You must feel vindicated by this."

Richard Young : "Well, to a degree, but that's not my main point because I think we had already proved that in my context during July last year, but this certainly corroborates what we've suspected, but in areas not involving me. So, to a degree, I am also showing that it's not just one disaffected bidder. This is a process that actually went the length and the breadth and the depth of the whole acquisition process."

Chris Gibbons : "Why do you believe the sanitisation has taken place?"

Richard Young : "Well, absolutely, as Tim said in his article this morning, is that if the investigators had made key findings and conclusions that there were substantial unlawfulness or irregularities, then a whole range of bidders, from prime bidders, prime suppliers to subcontractors, would have been able to use this as evidence in civil claims."

Chris Gibbons : "Would they not be able to use the drafts in the same way?"

Richard Young : "Maybe, but there is one small problem and that is the perennial problem of prescription is now three years or over three years. So, although it is potentially possible it is now more than three years of a lapse since the causes of action and so it's certainly watered down to an extent."

Chris Gibbons : "The role of then Defence Minister, and now of course late, Joe Modise. How do you see that?"

Richard Young : "Well, you know, between Modise and Alec Erwin were the prime movers behind first of all the Defence aspect and then propping up the Trade and Industry Industrial Participation efforts. So, Modise is definitely a prime mover and behind Joe Modise was the ever present, ubiquitous precedence of Chippy Shaikh, influencing all and sundry."

Chris Gibbons : "Do you believe that there was on anyone's part genuine impropriety? I'm talking about bribes, talking about..."

Richard Young : "Are you talking other than count three in the Durban High Court case?"

Chris Gibbons : "Yes."

Richard Young : "Oh yes, for sure. The aircraft deals, in fact, I know for a fact that the Director of Special Operations already had a case prepared against Modise, but it didn't proceed because he died and they thought that it was improper to bring a case against a deceased person. Another person who unfortunately is deceased is Richard Charter who was the Chairman of British Aerospace South Africa and Ospry Aviation who was their agent. There are all kinds of..."

Chris Gibbons : "I wasn't aware that Richard Charter..."

Richard Young : "Yes, he died in a canoeing accident on the Orange River about a year ago. Unfortunately the links now to the original, the origins, are now largely gone, but certainly there were many allegations and in fact I think that some of them had been substantiated like payments to the MK Veterans Association, payments to the ANC to write a book about the ANC. All done by British Aerospace. That's just the tip of the iceberg. We are aware of other things which unfortunately are not yet public domain. I just want to emphasise that what is coming out now is really the findings from the forensic auditing part of the investigation which was done by the office of the Auditor-General as well as the public interest aspect, as done by the office of the Public Protector. All the detailed stuff, investigations that were done by the National Prosecuting Authority, specifically the Director of Special Operations, I mean that report was only two or three pages then, but all that evidence is not in the public domain, but there is a mountain of it."

Chris Gibbons : "Richard Young, Managing Director of C²I². This one, as they say, will run and run. Thanks for being with me on the Midday Report."

With acknowledgements to Chris Gibbons, Richard Young and Radio 702.