Presenter: Now when Schabir Shaik's company, African Defence Systems clinched the contract to provide control systems for the new Corvettes, which were required as part of the Government's billion rand Arms Procurement deal, Richard Young of the company 'C-squared, I-squared' cried foul, the electronics defence contractor began his personal crusade back in 1998 to prove that there had been double dealing. Young has since spend some 6 million rand pursuing the information that would help him prove his case and last week's judgment in the Schabir Shaik fraud and corruption trial has revealed that much of what he has been claiming was in fact true. Well, earlier today I spoke to him and asked him how he felt about Judge Squires's ruling.

Richard Young: Well, I felt that basically what the Judge said especially regarding the arms deal part was exactly what I have been saying in public since about 1998. So I was pleased from that perspective. I don't have a particular attitude on the, you know, the individual aspects of the judgment and then the sentence, etc.

Presenter: How does this actually advance your case for 'C-squared, I-squared' in the courts?

Richard Young: I think very, very much so. My own personal perspective is that we have about half a dozen different individual pillars on which we can win our case and this would effectively constitute another individual pillar. In fact, we could just about win our case on the evidence and the findings that came out of the court, specifically regarding the interference by the Chief of Acquisitions in the acquisition process.

Presenter: Are you going to be able to use that information that came out during the Schabir Shaik trial, though, in your case?

Richard Young: Absolutely, I can't see any reason why there shouldn't be that opportunity.

Presenter: And do you believe that the whole area of the arms procurement deal is going to be revisited by Parliament by Government?

Richard Young: One can only wish.

Presenter: In terms of what you hope to gain out of this, you spent millions of rand, in fact it's been said you've spend some 6 million rand in pursuit of seeing justice done and getting access to information, just how far are you prepared to go to get this whole thing overturned?

Richard Young: No, I'm not prepared to go any distance at all in getting it overturned because that's almost a legal impossibility. The way the law works is that this acquisition process regarding the Corvette's is so far gone, I mean there are already four corvettes there and there are four combat systems, so it's almost impossible to overturn that contract. What happens if there is found to be a delict, or a criminality, then one's damages gets liquidised, or liquidated, so one can claim for liquidated damages - which is money.

Presenter: Just in terms of the work that you do, I mean your systems are very highly regarded, you've been able to sell them around the world. What has it been for you, this particular deal, the fact that it went so sour, how has it made you feel about operating in South Africa?

Richard Young: Well, we don't do any business in South Africa at all anymore. What's actually quite interesting is we attended the big defence exhibition about three years ago now and there were a other couple of other electronics companies similar to ours and they say exactly the same as what we felt, that is that we don't bother doing business in this country for one reason is that, it's hard to get a high tech sale and when government-related departments want high tech, they only want to buy it from overseas and it's just so difficult to try and get sale; all the hoops that one has to jump through regarding black empowerment and industrial participation and there's the ever present threats or feeling of people wanting kickbacks and bribes. I'm afraid that is a reality, so it's much easier for us to market our equipment overseas, especially in the States where there is very little bribery, at our level anyway. I don't know what happens at higher levels and so it's a straight deal: we offer something - they want it - we deliver - they pay and we go onto the next deal.

Presenter: Why do you think it is that South Africa looks abroad, looks to the developed world if I can call it that: Europe, the States, when it comes to procuring sophisticated weapon systems and arms, why aren't they looking more inwards, proudly South African?

Richard Young: Well there're actually, there's a number of different aspects: the first of all is, it's very common knowledge within the defence fraternity that there are a lot of technologies that requires, that are too complex, and too expensive to develop and maintain, so the defence white paper has identified technologies which are considered as key: things like electronic warfare and encryption and system integration, etc., but there are a number of technologies which are not required to be sourced in this country and those go overseas. But we're involved precisely in the area, or areas identified by the white paper as being strategic and there it's a completely different kettle of fish. It's extremely concerning that we went overseas and continue to go overseas to extremely suspect mainly European countries, or not so much countries, but companies, to get the systems. And it's not being cynical to say that we, that is people like myself, are sure that it was because it's difficult to get kickbacks out of South African companies because they just don't have the money, but the European companies especially are always looking for foreign opportunities to make sales to keep their own companies and industries alive and the way they do it is by offering considerations to what they call the in-country acquisition officials.

Presenter: Well of course just looking at that I mean, the arms business is characterized by shady deals, shady individuals, not everybody is above board and certainly what emerged during the Schabir Shaik trial was that the company, the French company involved here are Thompson-CSF, was looking for a political backer (and) were very aware of the fact that if they, if the deal was to go down, then they needed the right political backing. I mean, what experience or what have you seen to indicate that this is really the kind of climate in which business is done in the arms trade?

Richard Young: Well certainly that's become, you know, clear to me. Now up until sort of '98, '99 timeframe, I personally had my head down so deep in the technology and the projects that I wasn't really aware of it, but what you're saying is absolutely true. but it's actually far truer. If I may say that even what you're saying now, because what came out in the trial was not only Thomson using the offices of Schabir Shaik and Jacob Zuma, but there's a lot of evidence which was only eluded to in the judgment, but it came clear in the trial itself that they had far, far deeper tentacles into the government and it's clear that they, the French, were using not only their own agents, but they were using French National Intelligence resources and it's very obvious because you know, the company Thomson used to be a 100% government-owned entity, you know, a decade ago, but they had their tentacles right into the South African Ambassador to France, that's Barbara Masekela. They had secret meetings with Thabo Mbeki in Paris, they had a range of people like Yusuf Surtee who we know is really a connection of Nelson Mandela. So there's a number of resources that they used to get right into the decision-making process at the highest level. That's far, far deeper, far more extensive and actually far more serious.

Presenter: Just in terms of the damage that this has done to South Africa's image internationally, I mean South Africa sets itself up as a corruption fighter, that we're trying to create this human rights culture, everybody gets a crack at the pie, it's going to be a fair deal. But it's especially important now, with the focus on getting aid to Africa on an Anti-Corruption ticket, just how significant do you think that this judgment has been and what do you see is the future for the fight against corruption in South Africa given the political ramifications?

Richard Young: Well, I think the outcome of the judgment, the trial, is extremely significant because now everybody, both national and the international community sit up and take notice, but I have to be very honest, although for the last 3, 4 years, one has seen high level politicians, maybe the highest, mouthing off about anti-corruption, I have to be honest, certainly up until now it has mainly been lip service. I mean if we take the arms deal, this is only just one sector of public sector corruption, but if we even look at the Cell C deal, I mean that was a stitched up deal if one ever saw one, but there are so many other sectors involving resources, whether it's minerals or diamonds or forestry, the whole Komatiland forestry deal. Almost every aspect that you look at has been tainted with corruption, but they're allowed to carry on and carry on and carry on. So, to be honest, my opinion is that when these things are said at international venues and forums, it's mainly for the consumption of the international politicians and public, that's not taken that seriously and hopefully now that we have a conviction and the ramifications that this particular one has, the people will start taking it seriously.

Presenter: Mr Young, I'd just like to take you back briefly to what you said about Black Economic Empowerment and how it complicates the whole process of doing business in South Africa. As a businessman, do you thing that BEE is being used as a cloak for the kind of corruption we've been talking about?

Richard Young: Absolutely, not a question about it, even though the deals that I've just mentioned, every one of them has had a black empowerment deal thrown in and it's quite obvious, in a number of ones that have got to court that there is this influence of ANC House, Luthuli House. I mean a classic one which relates so much to my own case is the one involving a company called Sechaba Photoscan versus Transnet and in that case Transnet, being representing the government, actually conceded on the merits and only want to actually challenge the quantum, the reason being, as their lawyers said, that it just opened up so many aspects of black empowerment.

Presenter: Mr Young, thank you very much for joining us today on Midday Live.

Richard Young: Thank you very much.

With acknowledgements to Chris Gibbons, Richard Young and SAfm.

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